Curse

talon994 · Aug 07, 2009, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

By "90%" I meant "the vast majority." And, as we all know, 85% of percentages are made up on the spot. Whether 90% is an exaggeration or not, I don't know (doubt it :P). And my guild is mostly social, so they would probably not be up for UW. Therefore, PUGs are pretty much my only option. And I'm not going to find new friends to do UW.

Then do it? I'm not really sure what you're talking about. Are you saying Discordway is to other H/H groups as SFway is to randomway PUGs? Because no one's forcing you to use Discord. H/H are much less narrow-minded than PUGs are.

Looking at the SF icon and waiting for it to flash isn't too difficult.

Go back. Read slowly. He was using "piss" for an entirely different purpose.

1. Press skill 1
2. Press skill 2
3. Press skill 3
4. Punch the keyboard while running around wildly. At this point you can do whatever the hell you want.
5. When SF flickers, repeat steps 1-4
6. Clear one of the most difficult areas in the game in HM

Yea, it'll take at least two tries. An unskilled SF team could still do it an hour before a skilled balanced team could.

That's all it is.All of GW is just that. Anyone can make a perma get down to the ToA farm the crap out of the UW for 5 hours and have a least 20e in their storage.THERE IS NO POINT TO THE GAME ANYMORE. If SF can still survive then is there rly any point in doing 1,2,3,4? Even someone who plays 2-3 hours a day can make over 100k in a single weekend, maybe even less than a weekend. All it takes is 1,2,3,4. No skill is required at all. Elite areas are not elite anymore, due to the fact they can all be completed in what? 30-45 min? I mean ever been on a VSF?

''Guys its been 12 min...you F'king noobs cant do anything right
blah blah blah etc

Or better yet an UWSC VERY SRS BSNS I CAN TELL YOU THAT. If something screws up, everybody wets their pants.Almost every single player has 500e or more its absurd.Money is nothing in this game anymore and SF is making the economy worse.Besides whats the point of farming as a casual player (say 55) when you can do 2 UW runs and amass wealth?

Bottom line is that SF takes no skill at all.1,2,3,4 repeat for 3 hours BAM 20e.

And looking back im glad i quit GW last week.

Burst Cancel · Aug 07, 2009, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Whenever I read gurus, I get the feeling that nobody actually knows what the word "elitist" means.

To decry "elitism" in a game is ridiculous on its face, because a game is a merit-based activity. Any exclusivity, real or imagined, stems entirely from the metrics a game is designed to measure; we clump these metrics together and call them "skill". Generally speaking, there is no way for other players to keep you out of any area in GW - rather, you keep yourselves out by lacking skill.

A simple analogy is university - grades and degrees are awarded based on each student's aptitude. One could argue that such a system is "elitist", since it ostensibly grants privilege to the smart, hard-working students over the lazy, stupid ones, but that is exactly the point of the system. So it is with gaming - not all content is equally difficult, and not all rewards are equally distributed. Good games reward the most dedicated and skilled players by design.

tl;dr: gtfo with the "elitism" bullshit.

upier · Aug 07, 2009, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Titles and shiny crap.
Normal play does not give you the ability to complete some of the most moronically designed titles (or get FoW, Tormented weapons, Chaos Gloves, ...) in the game. Yet, since we are dealing with a game that isn't getting any new content - more and more players have only that left to do.
So, it's either fixing this issue or giving the players a crutch to bypass it.

You can guess what SF is.

So, no - I do not support trashing SF if that is the only thing that they plan on doing. The problem is I don't see them doing anything else. They just do not have the resources for it. And that removes the "if" part of my previous sentence.
I do not support trashing SF. The game will be worse off without it.

Avarre · Aug 07, 2009, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Didn't I already post a thread explaining why these kinds of skills were stupid?

Oh yes, I did!

Allow me to present an analogy. For the sake of Arkantos, let us imagine Guild Wars upon release is Wu-Tang Clan or something. Sometime later, they announce that all future albums will be released in collaboration with Lady GaGa, as it will bring more profit from the peasants. Obviously, the fans of Wu-Tang would go ballistic. Yet suddenly, the vastly more numerous GaGa fans show up, saying things like 'It doesn't affect your ability to listen to the previous content!' or 'Stop trying to control how we enjoy our music!'.

This ridiculously selfish sense of entitlement, would, of course, result in the overall product being a studio-polished generic mediocrity, which is pretty much what GW has become. And yes opponents of my word, I called you GaGa fans. What now?

My point is that the fans of PvE skills/consumables/SF etc are fans suited to an entirely different type of game, drawn to GW by the 'no monthly fee' mantra and pretty graphics. Sadly, GW is changing to suit their whims, and the original fanbase gets very little of what interests them.

Grj · Aug 07, 2009, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Wait are people really trying to justify speedclears being casual? lmfao

Speedclears are anything but casual:

Any type of mistake and the uproar is hillarious, i've never seen people in game switch so fast and become the most nastiest people i've met in guildwars, throwing all their ecto out of their prams. :P

Its not casual when the only purpose of grouping together is the abilty to farm faster, you're just a tool needed to get what each team memeber wants as quickly as possible.

The casual's don't even have to really play the game anymore, with the XTH they're getting free money every month... well if and when it goes back online.

The defence over this is all about the loot and the ability to get said loot with realitve ease.

garethporlest18 · Aug 07, 2009, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Well lets see..

The only reason I used SF in the first place, was to farm vaettir. Now that they nerfed that, I have absolutely no use for SF. I don't enjoy anything else having to do with SF.

If you take SF away, you finish off speed clears, for the most part at least. I'm fine with that, things will get more expensive, the in game economy will go back to where it was pre SF, at least a little bit. The only negative I see coming out of it, are people not playing..which isn't that big of a deal. That and they will also have to actually complete some of the elite missions now. Which..is what people were doing before SF was buffed anyways, so yeah.

Apart from very few players, I'm pretty sure everyone using SF, is basically doing it just to increase their bank to buy the things they want, which is okay, because it helps out. I don't really have an argument on why that's bad or good. Because I don't think things should be easy to get, but PvE in this game is casual so maybe thing should be.

However, I think Anet can nerf SF, to stop people from using it and then buff more non used elites. People will always find a different way, anyways. They've been doing it since 2005.

Fuzzie · Aug 07, 2009, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Shadowform is what killed pve for me.

Anet simply forgot.

Spiritweaver · Aug 07, 2009, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Dog

To defend such a cheap broken skill and blatant abuse of it is just blind ignorant defense because you can't admit your view is flawed and imo biased.

Let me put it simply, if people want to play the game by casually walking past "elite" foes without risk and waltzing to the rewards in 20 minutes because they have more important things to do, hop on a console and punch in as many cheat codes as your heart desires.

This is not the game for it.

Winner.

HM Elite areas should not be completable within 20-30 minutes via perma. It's a dumb mechanic that should have been removed a long time ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grj

Wait are people really trying to justify speedclears being casual? lmfao

Speedclears are anything but casual:

Any type of mistake and the uproar is hillarious, i've never seen people in game switch so fast and become the most nastiest people i've met in guildwars, throwing all their ecto out of their prams. :P

Its not casual when the only purpose of grouping together is the abilty to farm faster, you're just a tool needed to get what each team memeber wants as quickly as possible.

The casual's don't even have to really play the game anymore, with the XTH they're getting free money every month... well if and when it goes back online.

The defence over this is all about the loot and the ability to get said loot with realitve ease.

I agree.

DreamWind · Aug 07, 2009, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Anybody who thinks SF shouldn't be immediately destroyed is *insert worst possible insult without my post getting deleted here*. I can't even believe there is debate over this.

I'd also like to address the guy that said "Anet knows what they are doing and if you aren't a game designer you can't tell them how to run their game blah blah blah". If Anet knew how to run their game, they would have fixed this shit (along with a lot of other shit) ages ago. The incredibly bad logic of Anet's update and some of the posts in this thread is hilarious. /endrant

Silent Enemy · Aug 07, 2009, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

I'm sorry if I misread something you said, because I'm having a difficult time reading your post.

First of all, enigma was powerful, but didn't necessarily make you invincible in the way shadow form does. Two things are pretty damn different.

Yes, shadow form being around does affect everyone else. Here are the two professions mainly used in UWSC: assassin and necromancer. That leaves 8 out. Sure, not all professions were accepted before SF, but it was quite a bit more than 2.

I could care less how I'm recognized in the community. I'd rather see anything else but shadow form, because as stated, with shadow form around most other professions aren't accepted in groups.

This thread isn't going to get closed because another one will pop up in a few days. We can't stop people from discussing a huge problem in the game.

so. because you cant go in. and speed clear uw with your mighty paragon. or your puny warrior . ranger. monk or so on and fourth. its wrong ?

if oyu want to do clears. speed or slowpokeway. i dont care - grab friends who wants the same ?

majority of people in toa LIKES doin sin. AND necro. so ? QQ somewhere else

Arduin · Aug 07, 2009, 11:25 AM // 11:25

I'm hoping Guild Wars 2 will royally screw over all the people that needed Ursan, Shadow Form, consumables or any other of these easy-mode buttons to be successful in this game, PvE-wise.

Something like skill > time, that would work.

Symeon · Aug 07, 2009, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star Gazer

i am glad they did not nerf SF. hopefully, they realize that the people who scream the loudest are just a minor few (even though I am sure those who think otherwise will state...otherwise).

kudos to anet for an awesome update. rangers and sins got love, and in the next update hopefully mesmers and monks will be in the september update.

I predict SF will be nerfed after they give assassins some other options (like in this update).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

The only thing a complete nerf to SF would do is cause countless of average players to quit(Read:90% of people who think uwsc is srs bsns).

Good riddance. Guild Wars is not the game for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent Enemy

so. because you cant go in. and speed clear uw with your mighty paragon. or your puny warrior . ranger. monk or so on and fourth. its wrong ?

if oyu want to do clears. speed or slowpokeway. i dont care - grab friends who wants the same ?

majority of people in toa LIKES doin sin. AND necro. so ? QQ somewhere else

Quote:

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Chocobo1 · Aug 07, 2009, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent Enemy

so. because you cant go in. and speed clear uw with your mighty paragon. or your puny warrior . ranger. monk or so on and fourth. its wrong ?

if oyu want to do clears. speed or slowpokeway. i dont care - grab friends who wants the same ?

majority of people in toa LIKES doin sin. AND necro. so ? QQ somewhere else

I hear the woooosh of logic going right over your head.

drowze · Aug 07, 2009, 12:29 PM // 12:29

First, I wanna apologise if anything this casual player might say has already been said before... I only read the first 2 pages^^

Even though I do uwsc and fowsc myself, I think SF does need a nerf. It ruins gameplay and also seems to create a flaming attitude in alot of players that want things done as fast as possible. If you die and fail in UW you get 7 other players calling you noob, Newb, nub, or whatever... then they QQ about their 1k they lost because of that noob... and finally they add him to a so called "black list"... so the majority of players new to elite areas cannot enjoy these speed clears, because they do fail. You dont even have to die, these days if you take more than 20 mins to clear your area in uwsc you get flamed at.
Casual, and in some cases also new, players have a better time and learn alot more when they team up with a balanced group that takes different classes and has a few friendly exp players guiding them through - Im stating this based on my personal ingame experience. In balanced, yet slower, groups I have also experienced less flaming and QQ'ing when someone makes a mistake. So I think many people would enjoy those kinds of groups alot more than the the flaming, greedy sc teams that dominate the elite areas nowadays.

Anyway... sry for my bad structure and any english mistakes. In short I think the nerf of perma SF would make the gaming experience more pleasant overall, with more classes mixed in the teams, and even a change in attitude of the people in these areas. SF has only made people greedy and easily irritated and the game would be better of without it. And I do think alot of casual players would agree with this.

P.S.: In the first pages of this thread someone argued that speed clears are for casual players and elitists are the ones against SF. I just wanted to show that it might be that alot of casual players might possibly have more fun without these so called 'speed clears'. Just my 2 cents, ty for reading my first attempt to contribute to an online discussion ^^

kanuks · Aug 07, 2009, 02:41 PM // 14:41

The main problem is that the skill that makes all attacks and spell to fail against you CAN BE KEPT UP INDEFINITELY.

Also, it makes the Assassin, a melee class that was made fragile but could dish out impressive damage and spikes, better tanks than any other melee classes that were meant to be more durable with higher armor (At the expense of less energy). That is what is just plain wrong with Shadow Form.
Not only a warrior will never be able to hold aggro as well as a PermaSin but he only have 2 pips of energy regeneration which makes most of the best pve skills hard to use.

Take any other balanced MMORPG, I doubt that there is a skill that allow you to solo camp insanely large mobs indefinitely without needing any other party members to assist.

Basically, SF has a drawback but since it's possible to reapply the enchantment before it's taken into place, it's possible to totally ignore that drawback. Why doesn't A-Net removes that drawback since it's basically not a drawback at all?

Spiritweaver · Aug 07, 2009, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent Enemy

majority of people in toa LIKES doin sin.

Most people wouldn't even touch an Assassin before perma Shadow Form was introduced. Go figure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drowze

First, I wanna apologise if anything this casual player might say has already been said before... I only read the first 2 pages^^

Even though I do uwsc and fowsc myself, I think SF does need a nerf. It ruins gameplay and also seems to create a flaming attitude in alot of players that want things done as fast as possible. If you die and fail in UW you get 7 other players calling you noob, Newb, nub, or whatever... then they QQ about their 1k they lost because of that noob... and finally they add him to a so called "black list"... so the majority of players new to elite areas cannot enjoy these speed clears, because they do fail. You dont even have to die, these days if you take more than 20 mins to clear your area in uwsc you get flamed at.

UWSC is serious business.

Ghost Dog · Aug 07, 2009, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent Enemy

so. because you cant go in. and speed clear uw with your mighty paragon. or your puny warrior . ranger. monk or so on and fourth. its wrong ?

if oyu want to do clears. speed or slowpokeway. i dont care - grab friends who wants the same ?

majority of people in toa LIKES doin sin. AND necro. so ? QQ somewhere else

You're the one that wanted a thread to brag about who was best at pressing W then 1234, forgive me if I treat your opinion like a broke

I commend you Arkantos for actually trying to logically explain this because to me it's like licking a cheese grater.

@Burst Cancel you are preaching to the choir, "elitist" is the new escape hatch for people that can't debate their flawed opinion even though it makes no sense to use it that way it is popular, like when people are outwitted and use QQ or umad?

Simath · Aug 07, 2009, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent Enemy

majority of people in toa LIKES doin sin. AND necro. so ? QQ somewhere else

They like playing Sins and Necs BECAUSE of what both characters are capable of. Saying the majority of people in ToA are playing SF just because they like Sins and Necros is beyond stupid.

Next argument please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Dog

"elitist" is the new escape hatch for people that can't debate their flawed opinion even though it makes no sense to use it that way it is popular,

We have a winnar.

Just going to copy and paste this whenever I see the world elitist dropped in an effort to insult another.

Quaker · Aug 07, 2009, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Do you want to play baseball (old GW) or T-ball (what GW has become).

It's like lowering the hoop to 3 feet off the floor so everyone can slam-dunk. The problem is that the ability to slam-dunk becomes meaningless.

vandevere · Aug 07, 2009, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

The thing that most people are missing when they start QQing is that PvE is not the same as PvP. You see folks, in PvP, the goal is to beat the other team into oblivion until you win or they resign. However, this is not the case in PvE. In PvE, it is simple enough to get through an area because anet MADE the game that way. The difficult part is figuring out tips and tricks that allow you to get through an area as fast as possible. You could take random pugs and finish an area such as doa in 2+ hours, OR, you could take an elite group of people who know exactly that they're doing and the fastest way to do it, and get through DoA in 34 minutes. Everyone claims SF has made elite areas skillless nonsense, but, in truth, IT HASN'T. It STILL requires a large amount of skill to complete anything in a decent time. The only thing Shadow Form has done is opened up the game to allow more professions into pugs, and has allowed said pugs to form faster.

Running an SF tank in elite areas is extremely difficult. It's not as many of you make it out to be where you just maintain SF and somehow everything in the zone explodes. If pulls/balls are not perfect, you wipe. If you can't ball and pull under several forms of pressure(Touchers, PBAoE, 100B, etc), then you WILL NOT MAKE IT THROUGH A ZONE! Beyond that, if terribad players make up your spikers, you will STILL wipe, no matter how good your pulls are!

It's ridiculous to say that SF has ruined the game because the SAME elite areas can be done with obby flesh tanks. Frenchies used an obby flesh sliver tank and STILL got under an hour. The only thing a complete nerf to SF would do is cause countless of average players to quit(Read:90% of people who think uwsc is srs bsns).

My Guildies and I have gone through FOW-all the quests, and everything-several times now. We don't use SF Assassins, Or 55s, or 600s. Just regular builds, and we usually manage to complete it in around 30-40 minutes tops...

All it takes is knowing what to do and when to do it...

SF ain't the problem. It's the way the mobs are set up...